As a pastor I’ve counseled couples in crisis. One day a couple stopped into the office looking for help. Their thirty year marriage was in jeopardy. On their wedding day they exchanged vows to stay together. This couple had children and grandchildren. They had given their lives to each other. They were heavily invested in each other. And yet, here they were, struggling with a major disagreement. Through the recent election cycle, one voted Republican, the other Democrat. The disagreement between the two was like a deep chasm. After listening to their story, I took a deep breath. Here’s what I told them.
“You two should get a divorce. Leave each other. It’s clear. You are no longer in love. Why are you putting up with each other? Go find someone else to love and spend the rest of your life with.”
Isn’t that a stupid thing to say to this couple? Do you think after the love and life they’ve shared they should split because of one disagreement?
Okay. You got me. I made up the whole story. But I’m making a point.
In the last couple of years I’ve lost count of how many people who asked, “Why do you stay in the Church of the Nazarene?” Others are a little more direct and demand I leave. Why? Because I have become affirming of members in the queer community. The church and I disagree on this one issue which isn’t even addressed by any of the Articles of Faith.
I’m 69 years old. I attended my first Nazarene service when I was three days old. The family I was born into made me a fifth generation Nazarene. Grandpa was a Nazarene preacher. I graduated from Olivet Nazarene University and Nazarene Theological Seminary. At a District Assembly, leaders ordained me by the laying on of hands into ministry. I served as a pastor for 35 years in the denomination. I’ve invested my life into the church that I love.
And now, after one disagreement, you think I should leave? That’s like suggesting to the ficticious couple they split and go find someone else to love. It’s crass and cruel. It’s silly and thoughtless. And, in a moment of weakness, I confess that it’s hurtful.
So why am I staying? I’m staying because I’m in love with the Church of the Nazarene. She’s been the only church love I’ve ever known. We’ve held hands together. We exchanged vows. We’ve walked through deep waters side by side. Together we’ve wept and laughed through decades of ministry.
You want me to walk away from the church I love? I guess you don’t know me very well. Nope. I’m not leaving. I’m staying, even if we disagree on one issue. Who knows? Maybe the church and I can work things out. Or how about this:
How about we agree to disagree and get on with the real business of the church?
That’s my answer. And I’m sticking to it. How about you?
If affirming of LGBTQ+ community (I am assuming here that you mean full acceptance – lifestyle, ministry recognition including ordination, and as we say down south, the whole kit and kaboodle) is a “non-issue” for you then stay and work to make a positive contribution in the church that you love. If it is a compelling issue for you, then in all honesty, you have already left the church; you just have made the physical transition. On this issue, the church hasn’t changed and will not change in either of our lifetimes. You have changed and now you want the church (the vast majority of whom disagree with you) to make the same changes you have made. If that matters to you, you will not be happy ‘riding the bench’ so to speak. I have said it before: If the church body makes a change that I can not morally accept in good conscience, then I will kindly and quietly take my exit.
Thanks for your comment and giving me something to think about.
I’m staying because I don’t get that question over here. I love my church and my district, and that’s where I serve. I’m only a first generation Nazarene who feels betrayed by what the denomination has done. But I was unanimously called to this church in 2016 that I joined as charter member almost 40 years ago, entrusted to become an elder by my district who knows who I am, despite the suspicion by the denominational officer. Most importantly, I believe God wants me here.
Thanks Hans. Love and appreciate you.
I am not from a Nazarene family. I found Christ at age 15 through the Nazarene Church, ministered 48 yrs in European countries. I am now 73, retiered and not in agreement with certain leadership decisions on district level. Should I leave?? I can’t! I feel with you Brother Hartmann. Blessings,
Ludwig Duncker
Everyone must decide for themselves if they must go or stay. Follow your heart. Be good to yourself.
I’f everyone who accepts us, the LGBTQ community, who are Nazarene decide to leave the church there will not be anyone left in the church to speak up for us. Thankyou for staying and accepting us.
Thanks Matthew for your encouraging words!! There are others like me who love and affirm members of the LGBTQ+ community. Maybe more than you think!
Perfect analogy. To press the excellent parallel even further, I would strongly recommend, as a marriage counselor, that the partner who has transferred over to another “political party” cease obsessively demanding, badgering, and insisting – passively or aggressively – that their partner must change their ways. The one who has maintained the original constitution (structure) of their shared unity is not at fault. In this “marriage”, the one who is so obsessively insensitive to continue to make a singular issue – of all the hundreds of issues in the world – their sole crusade to “change” the other is the one at grievous fault. If the one partner insists this is an important enough issue that they will remain an irritating splinter (if not a painful log) in the other partner’s eye is the one who elevates their (self) righteousness over the whole of the relationship. Either remain in a peaceful partnership of spiritually submissive union, or decide to leave. A Bad Peace is always better than a Good War.
Well said. Unfortunately, that’s where this particular issue appears to be leading our church. Those that demand the church change their way are becoming more combative, judgemental, and accusatory to those that believe the denomination has had it right on the issue.
And on the flip side, those whose minds have changed but see it as something we can agree to disagree on find themselves being pushed out by those who don’t see it that way. Many see it as essential that we agree on this… and if we don’t, then the one who has changed must either leave or be forced out, apparently.
There are “combatants” on both sides who believe agreement is essential. And there are “non-combatants” on both sides who are willing to view this as a non-essential issue that we can disagree about while remaining together.
I admire your refusal to leave the COTN. You are a better person than me. I couldn’t do it.
I spent 35 years in the COTN, counting my upbringing, college, seminary, and pastoring. The last four of those were treading water. I had to get out but had no other background in anything. Your bio of no jobs huddled in a cabin sounds similar to mine when I finally left the first time. For four months. Not getting a job, I went back for one last hurrah in a church of 10 paying $50 week. But they had a place to live. I figured another job would open up doors elsewhere, and they did, fortunately. I never regretted that last Sunday, with the COTN in the rearview mirror. Yet, I will forever be dealing with its toxicity. There were plenty of signs over my lifetime, although I have no doubt about the intentions of most people. They were well-meaning, and a support system.
However.
When my mom didn’t qualify for food stamps because she made too much money as a minimum-wage daycare teacher, our pastor said Jesus would take care of you. Too bad he didn’t preach against Reaganomics and the cut to food stamps and other services. Wonder why I never heard sermons about poverty, racism, sexism, xenophobia, and such, and how as the light of Christ we overpower these?
I grew up when dancing and rock-n-roll were still a no-no, as was going to the movies. Still making up for lost time.
We spent many of my childhood years without a car. Because mom wanted me in a Christian school, it required 1.5 hours on city buses. Do you think the two millionaires who attended our church could have done something about that? They were nowhere to be found on Sunday night and Wed night, when the real church folk, like mom, attended. We got a ride.
In college you couldn’t speak on evolution or anything science related. Ask Giberson. Neither could you question the validity of a literal devil running around telling you to do bad things. Ask Bratcher. A college textbook for a NT course was written by Marcus Borg. The prof said we didn’t have to agree with it, just thinking about what he is saying. I’ve always wondered what he’d say about the COTN if his job wasn’t in jeopardy, since he was basically apologizing for making us think about something different.
The topic of racism is nowhere to be found. I worked in a prominent KC church which had a history of moving every 20 years. The little old lady who had been there 100 years told me plainly they had to move because coloreds were taking over the neighborhood. The most honest history I found of the place. Their last move was far, far away to buy them some time.
When I was pastoring, another old lady asked if her deceased husband was in heaven or not, because he had a tattoo, and those are forbidden in the Bible. It wasn’t the question, but the context. Their history was one of picking out who was and who was not going to heaven. I didn’t preach like that, or give regular altar calls to make sure people are “really” saved or sanctified. I usually ended sermons with an ambiguous question to try and make people think. Most didn’t get it. I was supposed to tell them what to go and do with themselves.
A number of them were not happy when I didn’t pray for a particular candidate in the 2000 election. I even received emails from colleagues pushing for that very thing. I finally realized the COTN and all of mainstream American Evangelicalism is simply a GOP voting block. And I had been Republican all my life, so it made sense. Why am I so slow to catch on? I read a Jim Wallis book and was struck with the question, “When did Jesus become pro-War?”
Then I came to realize why American Evangelicalism has always had issues with women ministers, persons of colors, why denominations are still organizationally divided by the Civil War, and why Evangelicals throughout history have been against desegregation (until radicals challenged it), against women ministers (until radicals challenged it), against minorities in general, and homophobic (until radicals have challenged it). The COTN and American Evangelicalism itself is always on the wrong side of history in its quest for religious exclusivity. We go to the movies now, right?
The COTN was grandfathered by American Evangelicalism which prospered via the suppression of women, Indigenous Peoples and the institution of slavery, and was fathered by the anti-intellectual American Holiness Movement. The COTN to this day has a small percentage of women or minority ministers. Wonder why that is, and why we have so few churches within actual urban areas. The anti-gay movement, embracing both Evangelicalism and the COTN in one homophobic stew, is simply the latest exclusionary tactic, while claiming their church can be everyone’s home.
I admire your staying power. I could not. As perhaps you learned as a substitute teacher, in the education world I have learned I can do far more ministry outside of the church than within. Students need hope, guidance, and someone to just listen. I am more content now than in the days of always apologizing, “Yes, I’m Nazarene but I’m not like/believe that…”
It has long been my assumption, though anecdotal it may be, there are plenty of other Nazarene ministers out there who feel as you do, yet the repercussions of losing their job, their family, etc. is too much to bear. How many would come out if giving the opportunity? They love Christ and their work in that denomination, even though it rejects who they are. That is a true faith, to believe in something which doesn’t believe in you. Perhaps one day the homophobes will be gone and the COTN will be a place of racial justice and gender inclusivity. I doubt I’ll live long enough to see it, for as other denominations take that risk, more homophobic white flight will enter Nazarene doors. Praise the Lord for all this growth!
In the meantime, keep speaking for those Nazarenes afraid to speak for themselves, both in pulpit and pew. No doubt there are thousands of them. Thanks for your work.
I just saw your heartfelt comments! I think UR spot on. In no way am I a better person than you! My resolve to stay in this denomination remains but I find myself dreaming what it would be like to jettison the flotsam and follow God and love everyone without needing to watch my back. To those who have exited, I admire their courage, and yours! Since your comment, TCOTN is now officially crucifying their own pastors. We are headed down a dark road. Thanks again for your honest comments.
Thank you, sir. You have my contact information. I would love to chat further. I would be glad to help wherever I can, since I have nothing to lose. The COTN is long in the rear-view mirror, but if I can help former colleagues find support, or new ministers find hope, by a public letter or whatever, I will be glad to do it. I have often dreamed of doing something for those in the COTN who are fearful of speaking for themselves (funny how that is, isn’t it?). I saw Tom Oord’s reply to your latest post. Tom went to ENC after my time as a student, so we never met. I was not even aware of his book, but I will buy it in support of him. It’s the least I can do as a kid who grew up in the COTN, and later became a pastor and academic. If others are able to relate the Wesleyan dynamic of holiness and love without connecting to the disgusting hybrid of anti-intellectualism, racist/homophobic American Evangelicalism, and American Fundamentalism (while pretending to deny we are Fundamentalist), it will not be a lost cause.
I am long removed from theological study, but I support those questioning what this tradition, and American society, has become. I imagine it is simply money-related, since Mainline Protestant denominations who have affirmed LGBTQIA+ persons have not exactly “grown” (the institutional bottom line you learn about when you are in Kansas City). I would love to see the denomination simply die, if in its rubble a new community is formed. Bresee never wanted to kill Methodism, but his passion for the “least of these” led him to leaving the denomination for a new movement. I think we are ignorant if we fail to see the irony, although I don’t pretend to be an expert.
And Jeren Rowell, the ultimate right-wing, upper class, homophobic company, capitalistic butt-kisser, makes me want to throw up. How many would also say that, if they could, without fearing repercussion? He is an insult to theological discourse. You may as well listen to Tucker Carlson’s theology. NTS was once a better place where you could question things.
Again, thank you for speaking out for the persecuted COTN leaders who dare think and question. And for keeping us updated. We (your generation & mine) may never live to see it, but others may trace their origins to these moments. The question is, how many are out there who could be mobilized and threaten to leave the COTN if their voices are not heard? I would love to know,
This resonates with me. There’s so much to love about the Nazarene church; for me, leaving would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I also understand why some people would have to leave.
My Boomer brain only last week made the connection that many of our Nazarene brethren live in countries where homosexuality is against the law. That’s a horse of a different color I can’t even begin to grasp.
If you haven’t gotten ahold of it yet, I highly recommend “I Think I Think”. Reuben Welch addresses some timely issues in sermons originally preached ~50 years ogo
Thanks! I need to check that out!